Video Games and Misogyny

[kuja.girl]

Thanks for sharing Pyper! I think it's awesome.
Growing all of the classic video games I knew (Zelda and Mario) all had girls that were in pink dresses who usually needed rescuing. It's a classic story but also, limited and sexist. Things got a little better on the NES - we got the Donkey Kong country games with Dixie Kong, still in pink, but much cooler (which Candy Kong countered).

[RMDC]

I only managed to get back on the boards today, and I missed all the fun.

I can't get too deep into this without offending someone so I'll just share some basic thoughts... This is an important discussion and there have been some important papers written on the subject. If anyone is interested I can try to locate them. [...]

That said, I have no problem with "sexy" character designs unless they are over the top. There are plently of games with "top-less" men that the girls get to appreciate

Ooh! Ooh! I wanna see those papers! Whenever you run across them, that is. It's hardly pressing enough to send you out of your way for them.

My issue with "sexy" character designs isn't just degree, it's the same issue I have with objectification within the culture as a whole. I'd argue that showing half-naked dudes is not fundamentally equal to showing half-naked ladies, since dudes are not the targets of constructive sexism from ladies. A dude showing off his bod is someone who is demonstrating his action - power - discipline - control; a lady poking her butt at the camera is demonstrating her passive - available - submission - objectness.

Overall, I don't mind sexy, but I'd far rather err on the side of not treating women like crap.

Do you mean Ulala?
I would point out that Ulala is a deliberate sterotype, as are many of the characters in Space Channel 5. Regardless of her miniskirt, I never felt like she was being over-sexualised like many other female characters.

WHATEVER HER NAME IS, GAWD, LIKE I CAN BE ASSED TO CALL SOME BIRD BY HER PROPERS. >.> In my defense, I played the game twelve years ago for five minutes.

Ulala is hardly on the extreme end of the sex-kitten scale in video games, but it matters to me that there's a big honkin' patriarchal thumb on that scale that tilts the balance askew.

I love sexy characters, men and women! It's just that the women tend to be put into sexual rather than sexy roles. And I feel that there is a difference.

When I read this, it really resonated with me, but I can't unpack my response to it just yet. Can you elaborate on what you see as the difference between "sexual" and "sexy"? I think there's something there worth pursuing.

Okay, now find me a game that has a male lead, whom is capable, doesn't kill people and doesn't do things that are seen as a traditional boy role.

Okay, so we have at least one good candidate for the character test (I have my own issues with Lara's character design, and I don't know enough about Alice, but I know the Hawk series well enough)... but then you said this, and I have two immediate responses to it.

1.) Jack from Harvest Moon: he's a capable farm who generally rescues a town from the brink of oblivion. On the one hand, we can talk about the sexism that's been layered over agriculture; on the other hand, the games have always been seen as appealing to girls, even before female avatars were available, precisely because it's a non-violent game that focuses on relationships. Jack is less a farmer than he is a gladhander, and that's definitely not a super-masculine role.

2.) It's a moot point anyway. Switching the test for men is not a natural reply to the issue of sexism in video games, just like you wouldn't convert the Bechdel test to critique male characters in movies. Video games, as a general rule, do not discriminate against men. Under patriarchy, male is default and female is other, special case, different. Video games are designed for boys and men and require no special niche because of it. Video games designed for girls and women are specially marketed and hinge on the same disturbing psycho gender crap that gets shoved down women's throats everywhere else in their lives.

The roles for male characters in video games line up with social expectations of masculinity: capable, powerful individuals who prove themselves with physical feats, often with violence. Male characters are generally not seen as bad or wrong for pursuing violent means to an end; if they are not heroic, then they are anti-heroes, people with whom we are still expected to identify even if we ourselves should not emulate them were we put in their shoes. Ultimately, male characters are played and remembered for what they do. They are patriarchy writ large.

Female characters also line up with social expectations: either they are aligned toward justifying passive, available roles for women in society, or they are designed to reinforce and justify male roles by taking a "what's good for the gander" approach. Notice that this is never positively reciprocated: male characters are not lauded for taking on roles seen as feminine, let alone for taking them to an extreme as a paean to femininity, whereas female characters rip out spines and commit genocide in an effort to be one of the guys (but with boobs!).

The issue in the thread isn't "why aren't there any good menz in games". Perhaps that's a subset of sexism, an unfortunate side effect of the titanic effort to piledrive women into the dirt.

Look at it this way: people complain about Homer Simpson. I used to do it, too. "Men have it so hard because of all the dopey dads on TV and in comics!" I cried. But Homer isn't the joke. Marge is the joke. No matter what an idiot, what a jerk, what a sleaze Homer Simpson (Peter Griffin, Al Bundy, et al.) can be, Marge - smart, capable, Marge - will always stick by her man. The message is that it doesn't matter what a screwup you are, man, you still deserve to possess your very own female helpmeet.

In short, I'm not shedding any tears over the plight of men in video games at the moment. I have a feeling that these over-the-top jerkwad male characters will suddenly look pretty out of place in games that feature actual women doing actual things while wearing actual clothes.

I would far rather have a sexy female lead who shoots guns and solves puzzles than a female lead who lets herself get kidnapped by an overgrown spiny toad all the time and then just sits and waits for her male hero.

In principle, I agree; however, the problem comes when there's so much sexy and guns that it defeats the purpose letting the princess out of the tower, since she's just fulfilling more patriarchy.

This may be interesting to the discussion. A father edited Wind Waker to have a female protagonist for his daughter to show that girls can be the heros too

That's beautiful. And there's absolutely nothing about Wind Waker that gets in the way of it. Man, now I really do wish Link was female.


HEY GUYS ANYONE SEE THESE: Nintendo's new "I Am Not a Gamer" campaign, meant to remind girls that it's okay to play video games, don't worry, you won't be slapped with un-feminine labels like "gamer" or "fun-liker" or "human"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs8uiO5E9rE - Sarah Hyland isn't a gamer, but OMG STYLE SAVVY IS FOR GIIIRRRLLLSSSSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFoNe9iD-I - Dianna Agron isn't a gamer, but PAINTING IS GIIIIIIRRRLLLLYYYY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XeECPKnJM - Olympic medalist Gabby Douglas isn't a gamer, but WAIT SINCE WHEN IS PLAYING A MARIO PLATFORMER NOT GAMING?! I'M CALLING A LAWYER

[DuckyBelkins]

I HATE HATE HATE those commercials!

Especially the one where some guy is helping Diane Agron solve some puzzles and then she's like "I'm not a gamer but thanks to 3ds I am a puzzle master!"

No you are not. Go away.

[blackmageheart]

I love sexy characters, men and women! It's just that the women tend to be put into sexual rather than sexy roles. And I feel that there is a difference.

When I read this, it really resonated with me, but I can't unpack my response to it just yet. Can you elaborate on what you see as the difference between "sexual" and "sexy"? I think there's something there worth pursuing.

It's hard to quantify the difference, since both are most definitely related. What I think I was getting at was much like the difference between pornography and erotic art. One is basically an outlet for exploiting one of the most basic human behaviours in the most direct way possible and the other is more an appreciation of form and figure, even while targeting the same sort of behaviour.
So, when I said sexy, I meant an appreciation of a woman and all the things she is and is capable of and finding those things attractive - because sexy isn't 100% physical attributes, although it certainly accounts for some of that appreciation. We can all appreciate beauty in some form but I believe sexy has an extra spark, whether it's attitude, physicality or even mannerisms.
And when I said sexual I meant more along the lines of "Here is a woman for you, we have made her what we think that you think is physically attractive and will most definitely want to hump...oops we mean play with." - based on physical attributes that are completely disproportionate and then placed into roles, situations and static positions that feel to me like they are bordering on *.
I'm not saying I have anything against the representation of sex, far from it - but it must be done in a manner that doesn't exploit women in general or encourage those behaviours in real life. I'm also not saying that all female characters are one or the other, but to me there's a definite leaning towards the more exploitive aspects in modern games (and indeed media).

Of course this is just what I think, feel free to disagree or correct me anywhere. I'm not even sure I made sense, but that's how it came out of my head! I hope you understand what I was trying to say

HEY GUYS ANYONE SEE THESE: Nintendo's new "I Am Not a Gamer" campaign, meant to remind girls that it's okay to play video games, don't worry, you won't be slapped with un-feminine labels like "gamer" or "fun-liker" or "human"!

I would hate for anyone to think I was a) not girly or b) a gamer. Thank you Nintendo! I feel so much better now!

[RMDC]

I'm in definite alignment with the whole post. You put it rather well.

[kuja.girl]

Men are stereotyped in video games but often in an empowering or positive manner as compared to women who often only have supplemental roles or are overally sexual. It's important to be aware of ALL stereotypes, good and bad, and to see what offends you, as well as others. My complaint is that there are not enough NON-SEXUALIZED strong female leads in popular media. The complaint just doesn't hold water very well at this time because the ratio is unbalanced, not that it isn't valid. (see the quote from the first article I'm posting for an example).

Ask a librarian and ye shall receive! I cannot provide the full-text of the articles unless they are Open Access, which isn't the case for most of the ones I found. If the links don't work visit the DOI resolver and put in the DOI, it will take you to the article but you likely will not have access. BTW - many of these have great titles! And most of the good ones came for the journal Sex Roles.

"Gender Differences in Video Game Characters’ Roles, Appearances, and Attire as Portrayed in Video Game Magazines"
Volume 57, Numbers 9-10 (2007), 733-742, DOI: 10.1007/s11199-007-9307-0 http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7173455721414x3/
A small quote from part of the discussion of this article:
"Results of the content analysis revealed significant gender differences in portrayal of video game characters. Supporting earlier findings, male characters outnumbered
female characters and males were more often playable characters as compared to females. Males were also more frequently the hero of the game, and had more weapons and abilities than females. Females, on the other hand, were more often supplemental characters in games..."

"The Effects of the Sexualization of Female Video Game Characters on Gender Stereotyping and Female Self-Concept."
Sex Roles Volume 61, Numbers 11-12 (2009), 808-823, DOI: 10.1007/s11199-009-9683-8 http://www.springerlink.com/content/e504886m5u736t2n/

"Virtual Virgins and Vamps: The Effects of Exposure to Female Characters’ Sexualized Appearance and Gaze in an Immersive Virtual Environment"
Volume 61, Numbers 3-4 (2009), 147-157, DOI: 10.1007/s11199-009-9599-3 http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0459143u2u3l860/

"Hypermasculinity & Dickwolves: The Contentious Role of Women in the New Gaming Public"
JOURNAL OF BROADCASTING & ELECTRONIC MEDIA Volume: 56 Issue: 3 Special Issue: SI Pages: 401-416 DOI: 10.1080/08838151.2012.705199 Published: 2012
I am super sad that my university doesn't have this one (PA readers will understand the title!)

there are many more, this is just what my first search found.

[RMDC]

I agree that men are stereotyped; I also note there's a difference between a stereotype and sexism. It's simply laziness to write a stereotyped man, but it's laziness and sexism to do the same for a woman. Especially taking into account that in general society men are seen as complex beings but women are usually single-facet people. In other words, men are people and women are women. So when a stereotype is used for a man, there's still an unspoken subtext that he's bigger than what you see, whereas all you need to know about, say, Yuna is that she's a hand-clasping smiley priestess, or that Tifa is a martial artist helpmeet for the men around her, or that Aeris is a hand-clasping smiley flower girl. It's major character drama when we learn anything more about a female character, but with a male character it's simply revelation of the depth that was already assumed to be there.

I can't wait to get into these studies! The abstracts are engaging. I'll see if I can access the full text at the local library.

[LinkIsMyHomeboy]

HEY GUYS ANYONE SEE THESE: Nintendo's new "I Am Not a Gamer" campaign, meant to remind girls that it's okay to play video games, don't worry, you won't be slapped with un-feminine labels like "gamer" or "fun-liker" or "human"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs8uiO5E9rE - Sarah Hyland isn't a gamer, but OMG STYLE SAVVY IS FOR GIIIRRRLLLSSSSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFoNe9iD-I - Dianna Agron isn't a gamer, but PAINTING IS GIIIIIIRRRLLLLYYYY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XeECPKnJM - Olympic medalist Gabby Douglas isn't a gamer, but WAIT SINCE WHEN IS PLAYING A MARIO PLATFORMER NOT GAMING?! I'M CALLING A LAWYER

Yeah...those * me right the f*ck off. I don't have as many deep thoughts, or really thoughts, period, about video games and sexism, but those ads are just a bad move on Nintendo's part.

[kuja.girl]

Yeah...those * me right the f*ck off. I don't have as many deep thoughts, or really thoughts, period, about video games and sexism, but those ads are just a bad move on Nintendo's part.

I don't watch TV so I've missed the video ads but I got an email that from them that ticked me off pretty hard. I have to say, Nintendo is pretty high up on my black list of developers that make sexists BS like this. This is not their first ad campaign like this, just the worst one.

[Kareesh]

Thanks to a spammer, this topic was brought to my attention.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chell from the Portal series. You barely see her body and she isn't super macho or anything. Sure, she's kind of the strong silent type, but still. I guess she does get some marks taken off for not really having any personality (not really anyone to interact with and she can't talk anyways) but her back story is explored and she's continuously being beaten down by GLaDOS.

Most of my feelings about women being overly sexualized is mostly based on my own self-image problems. I'm totally insecure with myself, and it just makes me uncomfortable seeing these half-naked sexy women wandering all over my screen in most TV shows and video games. Sorry, no deep thoughts here.

Another character I thought of, though she isn't a leading lady by any means, but Bonnie MacFarland from Red Dead Redemption. She's a strong woman with her own opinions in an age which wasn't well known for women owning businesses. Yet, she does have a softer spot, with an implied crush on Marston. I dunno, I guess I liked her pretty well.