Video Games and Misogyny

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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by kuja.girl »

Welcome back! And don't worry, this thread ain't dead!

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately because I've been playing the Witcher (which is very sexist, but also has strong female characters, so I excuse it because while they are sexy they are also awesome) and Borderlands 2 A LOT. I love both games.

Boaderlands 2 did got me thinking while I was playing it, why are there no female bandits? Going by the story-line it would make sense for there to be less females, the planet was a mining site, but no female bandits is just nuts. I mean how are they reproducing all these years later?! XD
I couldn't come up with a good reason so I'm going to label it as a case of laziness or oversight. I know this is an odd complaint to make, but by not having female enemies you have in a sense made girls "special" - they are reserved for townies, quest givers, PCs and story-line NPCs. There are only 2 female bad guys that I can think of - both triggered by quests.

Points in Favor of Borderlands 2:
  • The 2 female PC classes are pretty non-sexualized. The Mechromancer is cute in a crazy goth/school girl way and the Sirenis cool and amazingly enough wearing a pretty swank outfit that manages to not be slutty.
  • The NPC Ellie - she's a non-stereotypical body type who's very confident and comfortable with who she is. Her weight is supposed to be humorous, but as everything in the game is messed-up in one way, or another, I'm not bugged by it. It fits the cannon of the world.
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by MeiTow »

I must say...this is the most civil discussion I've seen on this topic in a long time. LOL!

Would the Resident Evil woman count toward the list? I've only played the R.E. series like twice (can't do FPS games because they trigger my motion sickness) but she seems to be strong female character.

I've heard the female Shepherd from Mass Effect is a good one as well.

I will say that I just suck cause I don't think I've played any of those games; although the games I do play I tend to just ignore most of the npcs anyway regardless of gender. I also tend to be moderately misanthropic toward my own gender (at least the ultra-feminine ones anyway) as well so that probably doesn't help much.

My major complaint about this whole topic is I don't understand why the women characters can't be bad a-- and sexy. I like making my femm characters sexy and bad a-- and I don't see a problem with it. Now, I do understand over the top overt sexified female characters being an issue and I don't argue that but we are sexual creatures and whether we like it or not men see women as sexual beings and women see men as sexual beings. I guess I just feel like we are trying to take it from one extreme to the other, in general, when it doesn't need to be so. I will say that using pink exclusively to denote something is meant for women gets on my nerves to such a high degree that I rant quite a bit about it but that is a general world thing and not restricted to games.

I think the real elephant in the room here is why are all the male characters also hyper-sexualized and why can't my female character find a cute, nerdy type to woo! :thumbsup:

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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by kuja.girl »

I have no problem with bad a**/sexy women characters - as long as they are more than a set of breast and legs - which is often not the case. Maya (the siren) in Borderlands 2 is arguably sexy but she does it without having giant breasts, or large portions of exposed flesh (I'm not counting her arm) and trust me, she's plenty bad a**.

This goes beyond video games, for example, check out the "sexy pose-off" between two SciFi authors (it was a charity fundraiser). I recommend reading the explanation/challenger response which explains why he did this and what's wrong with the "super sexy" poses of females on SciFi/Fantasy books.
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

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Kareesh wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chell from the Portal series. You barely see her body and she isn't super macho or anything. Sure, she's kind of the strong silent type, but still. I guess she does get some marks taken off for not really having any personality (not really anyone to interact with and she can't talk anyways) but her back story is explored and she's continuously being beaten down by GLaDOS.
I tend to agree. I will note that when Portal 2 came out, I cringed; they'd peeled off the top of her jumpsuit to show her in a tight tank top. I don't think that enhanced her mobility at all, and I imagine those sterile metal corridors get awfully cold. On the other hand, her enhanced facial textures weren't pouty lips and makeup - she looked like an actual human being. And not having a personality is a double-edged sword. On the negative side, you get Bella from Twilight, who was literally designed to have no personality so that all girls could identify with her (because, remember, woman = empty vessel to be filled by the ideas of the men around her); on the other hand, we have plenty of male silent protagonists in video games: Link, Chrono, Ness, et cetera. Chell definitely comes closer to the latter category.

I haven't played RDR, so I can't comment on Bonnie MacFarland.

MeiTow wrote:My major complaint about this whole topic is I don't understand why the women characters can't be bad a-- and sexy. I like making my femm characters sexy and bad a-- and I don't see a problem with it. Now, I do understand over the top overt sexified female characters being an issue and I don't argue that but we are sexual creatures and whether we like it or not men see women as sexual beings and women see men as sexual beings. I guess I just feel like we are trying to take it from one extreme to the other, in general, when it doesn't need to be so. I will say that using pink exclusively to denote something is meant for women gets on my nerves to such a high degree that I rant quite a bit about it but that is a general world thing and not restricted to games.

I think the real elephant in the room here is why are all the male characters also hyper-sexualized and why can't my female character find a cute, nerdy type to woo! :thumbsup:
I don't think anyone has a problem with sexiness period. I know that my specific issue is that the sort of sexiness portrayed is almost exclusively about reinforcing the most unsettling aspects of gender in society, often in the most egregious and unnecessary ways. I hardly think that anyone wants to take it to the other extreme, which I would assume to be the total removal of sexuality from characters.

The ways that male characters are hypersexualized are generally pointers to traits taken as positives: physical strength and fitness, confidence, training in a discipline, personal skill. That's not exactly the same animal. It's also linked to violence and dismissiveness, and when women are made muscular and capable, that violence and dismissiveness is also included - often more so, as a caricature. In other words, it's saying, "This is the way it's supposed to be. See? Here are some token women who agree with me. Sasha Vavoom is here to talk about how women are supposed to be sexually available to men, and Skully McCracken doesn't talk much, because she loves acting like a dude and killing things."

kuja.girl wrote:This goes beyond video games, for example, check out the "sexy pose-off" between two SciFi authors (it was a charity fundraiser). I recommend reading the explanation/challenger response which explains why he did this and what's wrong with the "super sexy" poses of females on SciFi/Fantasy books.
I loved when he was replicating poses on urban fantasy covers and in comic books! I also love The Hawkeye Initiative, which replicates female poses with male characters.

EDIT: And now I see where m4pl3 posted it elsewhere. :)
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by RMDC »

And further: Mirror's Edge was part of Steam's holiday sale. I picked it up for five bucks. I'm probably about two thirds of the way into the game, but so far I love this game for not being terribly misgynistic and for having awesome characters.
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by LinkIsMyHomeboy »

RMDC wrote:Sasha Vavoom is here to talk about how women are supposed to be sexually available to men, and Skully McCracken doesn't talk much, because she loves acting like a dude and killing things."
Somewhat off-topic, but this cracked me up!

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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

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LinkIsMyHomeboy wrote:
RMDC wrote:Sasha Vavoom is here to talk about how women are supposed to be sexually available to men, and Skully McCracken doesn't talk much, because she loves acting like a dude and killing things."
Somewhat off-topic, but this cracked me up!
Word. :D
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by Icelandic Hitman »

Sorry Fell of the planet again..... back to my role as DA

I hope that the Female Wind Waker gets a full proper ASM hack to make it complete.

Those Nintendo ads, we are talking about the company that made the OOT ads with "Will you save the girl" / "Or fight like one" right?

"sexual" and "sexy"?

Sexy is defined as somebody that is appealing in a away or level to cause a heightened state leading to arousal. This can be a girl in skin tight clothing striking a pose. A Victoria secrets model walking through a room with total confidence and 1kg of lace about her person. Or Audrey Hepburn dressed head to toe in a chic black dress, stockings with a big hat smoking and batting her eye lashes.
Sexual is defined as a somebody presented, or in a state of sexual arousal, in the female case, lips slightly apart to indicate that she is out of breath/panting, full red lips, reddened cheeks, thick eyelashes, glossy eyes, high amounts of facial symmetry. (AKA everything thing Mabaline convince you, you should look like )

Homer, Allllllll Bundy, American Dad et al. The point was not be a stupid girl and put up with your dopey useless husband the point is girls the grass is no greener for the rest of you, they ARE ALL stupid and useless, so love the one your with because the neighbours are in the same boat as you, and all your going to do is trade one lame horse for another. Behind every good man is a better woman, the same is true for bad men too.

Chell the peal off - totally pointless, but yes the tunnels would be cold, until you run full pelt through them for 20hrs, jump climb, hold and fire a gun that has enough energy to make black holes and fall in and endless loop till you reach terminal velocity, at which point the air friction will get warm... but totally pointless change, with zero added value to it. Unless if was for something like So your telling me we have the Same graphics, same logos, same rooms, same gun, same player .... we'll what can we talk about... we need something for news... oh wait Chells got a new look.... FIRST PAGE its like the Malibu Cindy doll gets a new hat

Side note why are homicidal computers always girls..... Glados, SHODAN, VICKI ( iRobot), Helena Botham Carter ( Terminator 4 ), Red Queen ( Resident Evil 1 - Movie )... okay HAL was male.

Boaderlands 2 did got me thinking while I was playing it, why are there no female bandits? Going by the story-line it would make sense for there to be less females, the planet was a mining site, but no female bandits is just nuts. I mean how are they reproducing all these years later?! XD

Ok....
You make a Game where a Guy kills a whole bunch of Guys ( <insert 5 million games here > ) totally cool, world doesn't care
You make a Game where a Girl kills a whole bunch of Guys ( <insert 0.5 million games here > ) totally cool, world doesn't care
You make a Game where A Girl kills a whole bunch of Girls ( 0? games here> ) not sure...... I think think No One Lives Forever had some female fodder.
You make a Game where a Guy kills a whole bunch of Girls ( 0? games here ) Oh nooo.... no no no no no no no no no just nooo you can't do that...... that promotes domestic violence.... little kids will play games.... the boys need to learn you can't hit girls.... that's promoting violence against women... oh no that is BANNED. In Medievil on Playstation in the Sleepy Village level you "knock out" Mrs Mad and Minni Mad because the US wouldn't publish it if you killed them. Not going to wheat belt America with that in the game. Set maleish creatures in Stiletto heels on fire - A- OK, kill a possessed lady wielding a rolling pin with spirally eyes NO DICE Yeah we were all WTF tooo.
When Mortal Kombat came out, people( by people I mean wheat belt Americans ) wanted Sonya removed from the game... it promoted violence against a woman. Now GTA is the poster child for it and Take-2 got slammed for it, they also publish Borderlands and would be keen to avoid facing it again before the army of haters fire at them again. And this is the sad tale of why the "cannon fodder" are men.
Then there is the whole "Poison" issue, which Capcom dodged by saying he is a post-op transvestite in Japan and a pre-op transvestite in America.

Faith in Mirrors Edge is a interesting case. The main point is she is designed for Western Tastes by the Swedish company ( Irony - most of Europe and the US see Sweden as being famous for large breasted blonde women called Olga ) which this post points out is against the Eastern preference http://kotaku.com/5062933/faith-from-mi ... ian-tastes , but Faith is basically Konoko from Oni with less guns. Whom is basically Motoko from Ghost in the Shell.

Anybody played Lili on iPad?

Gold Star award to Sonic and All Stars racing transformed. While it does have Ulala in a stupidly small and cutesy egg shaped 50s space tec car, and Amy in the cute pink car. It also has Danica Patrick in a Tyrell P34 dressed in her Fireproofs.
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

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Icelandic Hitman wrote:Sorry Fell of the planet again..... back to my role as DA
which I love you for. :D

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Those Nintendo ads, we are talking about the company that made the OOT ads with "Will you save the girl" / "Or fight like one" right?
Yes... on the other hand OoT came out in like 1492. I expect better in 20X3.

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Sexy is defined as somebody that is appealing in a away or level to cause a heightened state leading to arousal. This can be a girl in skin tight clothing striking a pose. A Victoria secrets model walking through a room with total confidence and 1kg of lace about her person. Or Audrey Hepburn dressed head to toe in a chic black dress, stockings with a big hat smoking and batting her eye lashes.
Sexual is defined as a somebody presented, or in a state of sexual arousal, in the female case, lips slightly apart to indicate that she is out of breath/panting, full red lips, reddened cheeks, thick eyelashes, glossy eyes, high amounts of facial symmetry. (AKA everything thing Mabaline convince you, you should look like )
This is more akin to my personal interpretation - markers which point toward socially-defined gender adherence. It seems like "sexy" has taken on yet another level of social cachet to which I'm not privy, and I'm always trying to play catchup to how everyone else uses it, hence my original question.

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Homer, Allllllll Bundy, American Dad et al. The point was not be a stupid girl and put up with your dopey useless husband the point is girls the grass is no greener for the rest of you, they ARE ALL stupid and useless, so love the one your with because the neighbours are in the same boat as you, and all your going to do is trade one lame horse for another. Behind every good man is a better woman, the same is true for bad men too.
Pow, right between the eyes, good form. Though I contend that both points are true: that the grass is no greener, and that the women are still the butt of the joke.

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Chell the peal off - totally pointless, but yes the tunnels would be cold, until you run full pelt through them for 20hrs, jump climb, hold and fire a gun that has enough energy to make black holes and fall in and endless loop till you reach terminal velocity, at which point the air friction will get warm... but totally pointless change, with zero added value to it. Unless if was for something like So your telling me we have the Same graphics, same logos, same rooms, same gun, same player .... we'll what can we talk about... we need something for news... oh wait Chells got a new look.... FIRST PAGE its like the Malibu Cindy doll gets a new hat
Well - physical activity does warm you up, but on the other hand, she's like a million miles underground, and at her terminal velocity she's getting colder, not warmer, because of convection. She'll never reach a speed whereby heat gain from friction overcomes that heat loss. :P

I know they wanted to do something to alter the character design. That's a common practice for sequels. And I know their options were limited given the game environment. But seriously? Shave her damn head. Don't strip her. Cheese and crackers.

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Side note why are homicidal computers always girls..... Glados, SHODAN, VICKI ( iRobot), Helena Botham Carter ( Terminator 4 ), Red Queen ( Resident Evil 1 - Movie )... okay HAL was male.
Yeah - why are homicidal computers gendered at all? Unless gender is an inextricable component in homicide. Hmm. >.>

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Ok....
You make a Game where a Guy kills a whole bunch of Guys ( <insert 5 million games here > ) totally cool, world doesn't care
You make a Game where a Girl kills a whole bunch of Guys ( <insert 0.5 million games here > ) totally cool, world doesn't care
You make a Game where A Girl kills a whole bunch of Girls ( 0? games here> ) not sure...... I think think No One Lives Forever had some female fodder.
You make a Game where a Guy kills a whole bunch of Girls ( 0? games here ) Oh nooo.... no no no no no no no no no just nooo you can't do that...... that promotes domestic violence.... little kids will play games.... the boys need to learn you can't hit girls.... that's promoting violence against women... oh no that is BANNED. In Medievil on Playstation in the Sleepy Village level you "knock out" Mrs Mad and Minni Mad because the US wouldn't publish it if you killed them. Not going to wheat belt America with that in the game. Set maleish creatures in Stiletto heels on fire - A- OK, kill a possessed lady wielding a rolling pin with spirally eyes NO DICE Yeah we were all WTF tooo.
When Mortal Kombat came out, people( by people I mean wheat belt Americans ) wanted Sonya removed from the game... it promoted violence against a woman. Now GTA is the poster child for it and Take-2 got slammed for it, they also publish Borderlands and would be keen to avoid facing it again before the army of haters fire at them again. And this is the sad tale of why the "cannon fodder" are men.
But - at the risk of quoting a movie I've never seen - we need to go deeper.

You can't just say that in a world of Equality!, everyone would be getting killed in equal proportion, that for every Ahnold on screen with a chaingun there should also be a Staceyann Chin. That ignores the fact that there does not exist institutional and constructive sexism against men, and it separately and equally ignores that there does exist such structures against women. You can't just wallpaper over the enormous hole in the wall and say that it's okay now, it's all Equal!.

Why were people so outraged about Sonya? Why is it that nutso violence is considered more acceptable when the perpetrators and victims are men? Because violence is gendered.

Why is violence gendered? Because patriarchy works to gender violence as a means of oppression.

So the issue is not about whether violence should be wallpapered, but rather why we're fighting over who gets to take part in a tool of oppression.

(Further, I'd love to get into a discussion about non-Americans bitching about and stereotyping Americans and American culture, but that's another thread. :D )

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Faith in Mirrors Edge is a interesting case. The main point is she is designed for Western Tastes by the Swedish company ( Irony - most of Europe and the US see Sweden as being famous for large breasted blonde women called Olga ) which this post points out is against the Eastern preference http://kotaku.com/5062933/faith-from-mi ... ian-tastes , but Faith is basically Konoko from Oni with less guns. Whom is basically Motoko from Ghost in the Shell.
Okay, that's Kotaku looking at a fan image where they a) inflated Faith's boobs and b) widened her eyes (in the process removing her iconic tattoo). :/

Now I don't know Konoko, but I am pretty well-read and well-viewed when it comes to GitS, and (unfortunately) I'm familiar with Shirow's other work. Kusanagi is a combination of Sasha Vavoom and Skully McCracken, with some broken-woman-emotion stereotypes thrown in. The only thing that almost saves her as a character is her military competence. She doesn't match up to Faith at all, save that they're both acrobatic.

And for the record, I think that stereotype about Sweden plays rather thin here in the States. As a general rule, Americans are not Homer Simpson or Al Bundy. :)

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Gold Star award to Sonic and All Stars racing transformed. While it does have Ulala in a stupidly small and cutesy egg shaped 50s space tec car, and Amy in the cute pink car. It also has Danica Patrick in a Tyrell P34 dressed in her Fireproofs.
Seriously, now I have to play this. :D
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Re: Video Games and Misogyny

Post by IHateThatGuy »

Icelandic Hitman wrote:Homer, Allllllll Bundy, American Dad et al. The point was not be a stupid girl and put up with your dopey useless husband the point is girls the grass is no greener for the rest of you, they ARE ALL stupid and useless, so love the one your with because the neighbours are in the same boat as you, and all your going to do is trade one lame horse for another. Behind every good man is a better woman, the same is true for bad men too.
See, this is the opposite end of the spectrum and closely related to misandry (the hatred of men). You wouldn't believe how far misandry is steeped in popular culture until you look for it.

Mysogyny only exists in a few mediums these days, and those mediums are the artistic mediums, novels, fantasy, Science Fiction, and video games which is truly the last vestige of "manhood". Women generally make more money than men these days in comparable fields. Sometimes up to 43% more with less experience while men work 8-10 more hours a week than women. "Feminism" is basically a misguided and destructive practice. Younger women are now more likely to assault a spouse than their male counterparts. One third of women versus one quarter of men assault their partners. The reasons why each sex will stay in an abusive relationship is drastically different and shocking, women will stay because they love the man whereas a man will stay because of his children and his family. 70% of all cases of child abuse are inflicted by mothers. The statistics for children raised by a single mother are also shocking. 65% of child murders are via the mother and 15% of SIDS deaths are attributed to suffocation due to the mother.

http://www.amazon.ca/The-War-Against-Bo ... _cp_2_VQ4K
http://www.amazon.ca/Myth-Male-Power-Wa ... _cp_3_VQ4K
http://www.amazon.ca/Spreading-Misandry ... pd_sim_b_6

Personally, I'm quite happy with misogyny in video games and other mediums considering what pop culture spews in our faces on a daily basis.

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