Video Games and Misogyny

[RMDC]

On the other hand, labels are an appropriate way to ensure that everyone is on the same page when approaching a topic from the standpoint of an academic discipline. Modern feminism is itself an academic, analytical discipline.

I guess I'm just not sure what labels we should be giving up here.

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I keep going over the list(s) and looking for characters who fit the theme of a strong female lead who isn't stereotyped into a traditional patriarchal role, Aya Brea aside. It seems like every time I hit Wikipedia or Google or IGN to look up a game or character, I'm seeing T&A shots, traditional masculine violent roles, and secondary / supporting / ensemble / unnamed characters. I'm not saying that you've done a poor job of assembling a list, Icelandic Hitman; rather, I think it speaks to the problem which drove this thread in the first place.

Perhaps there should be a modified Bechdel test for video games. A game can pass the test if it features:

• A female lead...
• ... who is capable in her role...
• ... whose job isn't killing people...
• ... whose sexual appeal is not a factor in the character's design...
• ... who doesn't need to be rescued...
• ... and who preferably doesn't have a male romantic interest...
• ... and also preferably isn't restricted to traditional female roles.

Anyone fit that bill?

[kuja.girl]

I can't get too deep into this without offending someone so I'll just share some basic thoughts... This is an important discussion and there have been some important papers written on the subject. If anyone is interested I can try to locate them.

I worked in the game industry briefly with mostly immature young men in a QA section. I tried to explain to them why I found some things offensive and just gave up. The management understood but my "peers" were pretty horrible. They were NOT reflective of the industry, but of consumers who just accept the status quo. I believe that if we want to change an industry we have to change our expectations.

That said, I have no problem with "sexy" character designs unless they are over the top. There are plently of games with "top-less" men that the girls get to appreciate ;)

Responses to some particular games:
Harvest Moon series - in my limited experience it is VERY sexist. I've only played one version, one of the fantasy titles, which I returned after a week. All of the females were vapid and nothing more than eye candy. This is not the main reason I returned the game, I disliked the game play, but I was a bit flabbergasted by it. It fits in the category of what I call "innocent Japanese sexism" - it's part of the culture and not meant to be offensive.

Cave Story - I just played through this for the first time this week so it's still fresh. There's not a lot of character detail in this game but it has a lot of notable female characters. Curly is the main character's female equivalent - you can replay the game as her with only a little dialog changes (I haven't done this yet). There are also 2 female mimiga who are also very strong and a strong female baddie.

Spoiler

If you play through as Curly, Quote then needs to be rescued twice so I don't think it's a sexist move, only a plot device.

Other games I would put as "female strong":

• FF XII and FFXIII - they still have some stereotypical moments (OMG Fran's outfit!) but overall I was pleased with their treatment of women. To lesser extent FF XIII-2 - though frankly, the plot is so weird it's kind of hard to judge.
• Disgaea series - #4 has some great female characters, haven't played through all the way though...

[blackmageheart]

And as for Lululu, I repeat: space miniskirt.

to which lululu while a stereo typical tv show host ditz but not one of the 3 things you listed.

Do you mean Ulala?
I would point out that Ulala is a deliberate sterotype, as are many of the characters in Space Channel 5. Regardless of her miniskirt, I never felt like she was being over-sexualised like many other female characters.

I ought to differentiate my earlier point about pink - I have no problem with anyone liking pink, or being portrayed wearing it. I do have a problem with it when it's a specific marker of gender, especially when a) it's suffusive in order to really gender that lady or b) when it's applied as a way to "girlify" something that would otherwise be default (and therefore masculine, as masculinity is default under patriarchy).

So, without having played PS1 but having heard good things about Alis, I imagine those don't apply to her.

Oh I have no problem with pink (these days at least, when I was young I couldn't stand pink!). It is just a colour after all. But I always felt like they put Alis in a pink dress just to "girlify" her as you put it. Just to make sure you know she's definitely a girl and a girly girl and there's no ambiguity about the matter. They could have had her in any colour dress and she would have been the same character to me, but I guess they wanted to reinforce (for want of a better word) her gender, if you see what I mean.

That said, I have no problem with "sexy" character designs unless they are over the top. There are plently of games with "top-less" men that the girls get to appreciate

I love sexy characters, men and women! It's just that the women tend to be put into sexual rather than sexy roles. And I feel that there is a difference.

[kuja.girl]

That said, I have no problem with "sexy" character designs unless they are over the top. There are plently of games with "top-less" men that the girls get to appreciate ;)

I love sexy characters, men and women! It's just that the women tend to be put into sexual rather than sexy roles. And I feel that there is a difference.

Well I still remember laughing really hard when they redid the female character models in Age of Conan because the breasts were TOO BIG. That was over the top for sure. Many of the Resident Evil games go both ways here - the women characters are damn strong but sometimes their costumes are... well just silly. When I was younger I was more sensitive to this - and resentful. But as I said, I don't believe the problem is fully with the game designers, it's the culture of society. Women still don't get paid as equals or hired equally which is an even bigger issue.
While I would love for there to be more top-level change I think a bottom-up revolution would be more effective. (go go strong female Indie games!)

[Icelandic Hitman]

• A female lead... 1st Lara Croft
• ... who is capable in her role... She totally nails it
• ... whose job isn't killing people... she kills tigers and bats, but only to break up the logic puzzle solving gameplay and stop it from becoming to monotonous
• ... whose sexual appeal is not a factor in the character's design... she was oiginally a male, until the legal department got all worried about the new Indy games, and 4th movie rumors, so Lucas Arts would Sue em. They hit the idea to make the main character a girl can't confuse a girl with Indy, and the change was made
• ... who doesn't need to be rescued... shes a lone wolf who gets herself into and out of trouble
• ... and who preferably doesn't have a male romantic interest... nope
• ... and also preferably isn't restricted to traditional female roles. does word traveller, dungeon/treasure hunter fill a traditional role. She does use being a Journalist as her cover though...

• A female lead... American McGees Alice
• ... who is capable in her role... Its her head, she is kinda the master of it
• ... whose job isn't killing people... do card soldiers count?
• ... whose sexual appeal is not a factor in the character's design... no
• ... who doesn't need to be rescued... tricky, yes she needs help, lots and lots of help, but she mostly has to do it herself
• ... and who preferably doesn't have a male romantic interest... no
• ... and also preferably isn't restricted to traditional female roles. no

• A female lead... Elissa Steamer - Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1-5... ok lead is pushing it as shes not Tony, but she is equally choosable
• ... who is capable in her role... 100%
• ... whose job isn't killing people... not even close
• ... whose sexual appeal is not a factor in the character's design... she is an actual person and her in game model is based on her
• ... who doesn't need to be rescued... no
• ... and who preferably doesn't have a male romantic interest... no
• ... and also preferably isn't restricted to traditional female roles. she was the first female pro skater so I guess not traditional

Okay, now find me a game that has a male lead, whom is capable, doesn't kill people and doesn't do things that are seen as a traditional boy role.

[blackmageheart]

... whose job isn't killing people... she kills tigers and bats, but only to break up the logic puzzle solving gameplay and stop it from becoming to monotonous

Lara kills a number of people in the first game. Pierre, the cowboy, the skating dude, Natla (although I'm not sure if she really counts as a person or not!) - you have gun battles in several areas where the point is absolutely to kill people.

... whose sexual appeal is not a factor in the character's design...

Regardless of whether she was originally male or not, or the fact that her triangle boobs were accidental, her sexual appeal was very much a factor in her design.

[Icelandic Hitman]

Its been redone and I might be thinking more of the Anniversary remake vs the true Original storywise. But I thought you "Knocked Out" the others, and then Natla was your first Kill, which was meant to be the turning point for Lara, as she makes a point of actually killing rather than subduing. Or it may just be the story writers vague attempts to make their work sound like a magnum opus I've heard.( I have heard a lot of 1at and 2nd hand things about TR ) Either way its not her job nor a major focus of what she is or does, most of the game is problem solving and gymnastics.

Her body is a result of 320x240 with a Saturn's Fill Rate and Quad count + Software Triangle Engine ( its doesn't do Triangles in hardware but does Quads - and they wonder why it flopped ) So yes her breasts protrude a lot but in reality its only 2 pixels and her waist tappers a lot, again 2 pixels.

To which I argue the game and its developers meet the criteria, admittedly with a developers view of product development vs the looking at the whole story end to start of somebody external to the processes.

However MARKETING yup no excuse totally pushed the shes hot angle to the max, which did very well for them, being the Saturn Era the idea of girls playing a Sega Console was alien and they needed something to make teenage boys pay any attention to it and invert the 80% no gender swap issue. Doesn't make it right, or good, or the original makers happy though. They then knew about the product and interfered on TR 2 which is why Lara changed a lot. 95% of game horrors can be blamed on marketing and Tomonobu Itagaki, as a Dev that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[m4pl3g1rl]

While Laura Croft was built to be somewhat of a sexual item originally, I think she's outgrown that. Especially with Angelina Jolie's representation of her. Angelina is very pretty, but she's also one of the few women who can pull off what I think Laura does. They're sexy but so strong it's almost secondary to their personality.

I would far rather have a sexy female lead who shoots guns and solves puzzles than a female lead who lets herself get kidnapped by an overgrown spiny toad all the time and then just sits and waits for her male hero.

At least Zelda got bored and actually DID something at one point.

I am okay with pretty/sexy females as long as there are brains to go with it. After all, we have the full gamut of females in real life. There are sexy women who are brilliant.

[kuja.girl]

Agreed that reguardless of the legal motivations of making Tomb Raider's lead a female - she is graphically a sex symbol. She's a strong character but suffered from enormous knockers, a tight tank and skippy shorts - sorry but that's a sterotypical sexist design : / An article from the time (1998) agrees - "Video World Is Smitten by a Gun-Toting, Tomb-Raiding Sex Symbol"

The 2013 reboot does away with most of these design issues (she still has a tank top but it's back to covering her midriff) and it's one that I like. As a woman, this is someone I can identify with... I never could with the original.

[Pyper]

This may be interesting to the discussion. A father edited Wind Waker to have a female protagonist for his daughter to show that girls can be the heros too

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/11/i ... ex-change/